| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Joe Q.
New Member
USA
70 Posts |
 Posted - 06/06/2005 : 20:48:17
|
Mike,
I have been bugging you about improvisation a lot recently. I figure this is the perfect time and place to post this question:
What tunes do you focus on when students want to begin improvising or improve their current improvisational ability?
With your guidance, I recently worked on improvisation through the tune "Blue Bossa". I had a great time learning the tune and making an all bass recording to demonstrate my effort and understanding. I would love to begin working on another tune very soon. Which tune do you suggest?
Joe
Music is your own experience, your thoughts, your wisdom. If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn. ~Charlie Parker
|
|
|
michaeldimin
Forum Admin
99 Posts |
Posted - 06/06/2005 : 21:37:45
|
quote:
Originally posted by Joe Q.
Mike,
I have been bugging you about improvisation a lot recently. I figure this is the perfect time and place to post this question:
What tunes do you focus on when students want to begin improvising or improve their current improvisational ability?
With your guidance, I recently worked on improvisation through the tune "Blue Bossa". I had a great time learning the tune and making an all bass recording to demonstrate my effort and understanding. I would love to begin working on another tune very soon. Which tune do you suggest?
Joe
Music is your own experience, your thoughts, your wisdom. If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn. ~Charlie Parker
I try to work with the students own interest. From there I will work tunes that are diatonic and have a fairly simple melody or a melody that has a definite structure to it. A good song to start with is Chameleon. It is diatonic and the melody is based on a Bb minor pentatonic. It has a very simple form and a great groove to solo over.
Why don't you make a list of songs that you like and we'll take it from there
Mike |
 |
|
|
Joe Q.
New Member
USA
70 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2005 : 11:01:28
|
Oh no, he turns the question right back in my direction  . Well, I can't think of list at the moment; but, I already learned the melody to Anthropology. Do you think this is too ambitious a song choice? I am familiar with the "Rhythm Changes" chord progression from learning the tune and working through your "Chordal Approach" lesson book. Not too long ago I sent you a recording of Anthropology; however, there were no solos included. It would be nice to feel comfortable soloing through Rhythm Changes if you think it's a good goal for me at this point. The melody took a good amount of practice to get down (even at a moderate tempo). What do you think?
Thanks,
Joe
Music is your own experience, your thoughts, your wisdom. If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn. ~Charlie Parker
|
|
|
|
dsincjr
Starting Member
USA
4 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2005 : 12:06:03
|
Hi Mike,
Cool site. How about a soolo blues song? You know my level so why don't you pick it? See you tonight.
Regards, Dave |
|
|
|
Joe Q.
New Member
USA
70 Posts |
Posted - 06/10/2005 : 20:19:11
|
If Rhythm Changes isn't something that you want to work through, then maybe we could do Stella By Starlight since you are currently working on an arrangement for the solo compeition. Of the 4 tunes listed as "Repertoire Songs" in the solo compeition, I would have to pick Stella By Starlight.
If I had to pick another tune I would have to say Blue Monk. I have always loved that tune.
Joe
Music is your own experience, your thoughts, your wisdom. If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn. ~Charlie Parker
|
|
|
|
Joe Q.
New Member
USA
70 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2005 : 20:18:09
|
Mike,
This post could go in the Solo Bass Competition thread, but I figured that it could be posted here instead. I have given it some thought, and I would like to work through Stella By Starlight. This way I can work on a new tune AND possibly work on a submisson piece for the Solo Bass Competition. Like I said in the past, I enjoy the learning process. If I end up with something good enough to send in, I'll do it; however, I'd need to put together another solo piece to meet the entry requirement.
I have the chart and I'm trying to analyze the key centers. I remember that this is what we did first when working on Blue Bossa. Blue Bossa only had 2 key centers; however, Stella By Starlight seems to have several. I am noticing ii7b5 V7b9 a lot! Are the b5 & b9 commonly used in minor progressions?
Are the first 2 bars in D minor?
Are bars 3 and 4 in Bb Major?
Are bars 5 through 8 in Eb Major?
This kind of analysis is tricky for me. I spent most of my time in college analyzing music like Bach chorales. I just want to check and see if I'm on the right track.
Thanks,
Joe
Music is your own experience, your thoughts, your wisdom. If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn. ~Charlie Parker
|
|
|
|
michaeldimin
Forum Admin
99 Posts |
Posted - 06/18/2005 : 00:55:02
|
quote:
Originally posted by Joe Q.
Mike,
This post could go in the Solo Bass Competition thread, but I figured that it could be posted here instead. I have given it some thought, and I would like to work through Stella By Starlight. This way I can work on a new tune AND possibly work on a submisson piece for the Solo Bass Competition. Like I said in the past, I enjoy the learning process. If I end up with something good enough to send in, I'll do it; however, I'd need to put together another solo piece to meet the entry requirement.
I have the chart and I'm trying to analyze the key centers. I remember that this is what we did first when working on Blue Bossa. Blue Bossa only had 2 key centers; however, Stella By Starlight seems to have several. I am noticing ii7b5 V7b9 a lot! Are the b5 & b9 commonly used in minor progressions?
Are the first 2 bars in D minor?
Are bars 3 and 4 in Bb Major?
Are bars 5 through 8 in Eb Major?
This kind of analysis is tricky for me. I spent most of my time in college analyzing music like Bach chorales. I just want to check and see if I'm on the right track.
Thanks,
Joe
Music is your own experience, your thoughts, your wisdom. If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn. ~Charlie Parker
Is this the basic chart you are working from?
http://www.michaeldimin.com/stella.pdf
Mike |
|
|
|
Joe Q.
New Member
USA
70 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2005 : 10:10:29
|
Mike,
Actually I am looking at the following chart:
http://mapage.noos.fr/realbook/RB/Stella_By_Starlight.jpg
I noticed the rhythms are a bit different in your chart. I'm also noticing some chord changes in measures 13 and 14. I like how these changes create a more interesting root movement. I noticed that you removed the b5 from some of the chords. Also, I noticed the addition of a #11 here and there.
I took my version of the chart and started to have fun at the piano by doing some simple reharminizations. I did a tritone substitution on some of the dom.7 chords. Also, I tried doing the tritone sustitution, and then changed that chord into a ii, V progression. Sometimes it sounded okay, sometimes it didn't.
Anyhow, I'm looking forward to working on this tune.
Thanks,
Joe
Music is your own experience, your thoughts, your wisdom. If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn. ~Charlie Parker
|
Edited by - Joe Q. on 06/19/2005 11:18:05 |
|
|
|
michaeldimin
Forum Admin
99 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2005 : 07:00:36
|
Bassically the same chart - that's good. We should start with the first 8 bars. Stella is a difficult tune and we can look at it very simply or much more complicated. We start with a II-V to D minor and a II-V to Bb major (note that the D minor is the III of Bb). So we can analyze this as II-V of III to II-V. We then find a F-7 to Bb7(b9)- the II-V of IV (Eb). It is not until measure 8 where the Ab7#11 presents ssomething out of the oridnary. The melody is a sequence and diatonic to Bb.
With me so far?
Mike |
|
|
|
Joe Q.
New Member
USA
70 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2005 : 11:55:17
|
Yes, I think that I follow you. Let me clarify for my understanding:
Measures 1&2: D minor ii, V of iii (iii = 3rd degree of Bb)
Measures 3&4: Bb Major ii, V
Measures 5&6: Eb Major ii, V of IV (IV = 4th degree of Bb)
The entire melody up to this point is diatonic to Bb Major (no accidentals).
Ab7#11 does not fit neatly into a diatonic analysis.
Right?
Joe
Music is your own experience, your thoughts, your wisdom. If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn. ~Charlie Parker
|
|
|
|
michaeldimin
Forum Admin
99 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2005 : 14:32:42
|
Almost: Eb major could be the I of Eb or the IV of Bb. Neither the melody or the change give it away (if it were the IV chord it would have a #11). I would tend to think of it as the IV chord for the following reason. Over any major chord the 4th scale degree is the "avoid note". You don't have to avoid it all the time but the #11 would add a nice tension.
Mike |
|
|
|
Joe Q.
New Member
USA
70 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2005 : 20:40:03
|
Mike,
I based the Eb Maj.7 being "ii, V of IV" from your statement:
quote:
We then find a F-7 to Bb7(b9)- the II-V of IV (Eb).
Does the ii, V (F-7, Bb7) progression imply that we are in the key of Eb Major; especially when the progression goes to an Eb Maj.7 chord?
So the Eb Maj.7 chord here IS the tonic chord, right? Or, does the Ab7#11 change that in some way?
Joe
"Music is your own experience, your thoughts, your wisdom. If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." ~Charlie Parker
|
|
|
|
michaeldimin
Forum Admin
99 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2005 : 02:33:58
|
Just like the Dm7 is the III chord in the key of Bb the Ebma7 is the IV chord in Bb. Just as the Em7(b5) to A7 (b9) is the II-V to the III, the F-7 to Bb7 is the II-V to the IV chord.
The II-V's to the Dm and Bb never resolve, the one to the Eb does. Is that a bit more clear?
Mike |
|
|
|
michaeldimin
Forum Admin
99 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2005 : 02:43:47
|
The first thing we see is a II-V leading to a minor chord. The quality of these chords are usually half diminished to dom 7(b9) or dom 7 (alt).
Now the Em7(b5) uses the Locrian #2 mode. As we looked at in the Blue Bossa over there. The #2 sounds better. The Locrian #2 is the 6th mode of the melodic minor scale which contains no "avoid" notes. In this case it is the 6th degree of the G melodic Minor scale
The A7(b9) comes from the half step/whole step scale. This scale is a symmetrical (which means there is only three of them) and is therefore pretty easy to play
The Cm7 to F7 in measures 3 and 4 is simply a II-V to a major: tonal center Bb
The Fm7 to Bb7 is a simple II-V to Eb.
Over the EbMaj7, I might play the lydian mode (#4) for two reasons. 1) we could look at it as the IV chord and 2) the raised 4th now gets rid of the "avoid" note (natural 4).
Mike |
|
|
|
michaeldimin
Forum Admin
99 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2005 : 02:48:11
|
Lets take a moment to investigate what we would do if the A7 was alt. as opposed to a b9.
Altered comes from the 7th degree of the Melodic Minor Scale. Therefore A7 alt comes from the Bb melodic Minor scale. The melodic minor scale has no avoid notes. Remember that the Em7(b5) comes from the G melodic Minor (6th degree) and the A7 alt comes from the Bb Melodic minor.
Therefore, you can play a phrase over the Em7(b5) and repeat it up a minor 3rd for the A7 alt. This gives you both the notes that work and a melodic sequence |
|
|
|
michaeldimin
Forum Admin
99 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2005 : 03:04:10
|
Since it is the middle of the night we will take a quick look at the Ab7#11. The dom 7 #11 indicates the lydian b7 scale (lydian dominant). This comes from the 4th mode of the Melodic Minor Scale. In this case, the 4th degree of Eb Melodic Minor.
I said earlier that the Eb Maj7 is the IV chord because it would give us the raised 4th, but if we think of it as a tonic chord, for a moment then we have gone from Ebmaj to Eb minor (Melodic Minor being used over a I minor chord).
Here is an "aha" moment. The only difference in the scales between the Ebmaj7 and the Ab7(#11)(or Eb melodic minor) is:
1. If we use major for the Eb, the only difference is a G to a Gb
2. If we use lydian b7 for the Eb, then the only difference is G to Gb and A to Ab
Mike |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
Improvisation
