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Joe Q.
New Member
USA
70 Posts |
 Posted - 12/28/2005 : 20:44:21
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Mike,
I recently formed a Jazz Combo with some guys at work. We are working on 6 tunes right now. I don't do a lot of walking. My goal is to walk comfortably while reading the chords from a chart. I can sit down and write walking lines on paper, but that doesn't help me in a performing situation; it's very limiting.
As I read though the chart, I keep getting stuck on progressions like these:
Autumn Leaves:
Em7 Eb7 | Dm7 Db7 | CM7 |
Satin Doll:
CM7 Dm7 | D#o7 Em7 | Gm7...
I find myself playing the root 2 times for each chord. Do you have any suggestions for progressions like these?
Thanks,
Joe
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michaeldimin
Forum Admin
99 Posts |
Posted - 12/29/2005 : 06:23:36
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Joe,
Every bass line is made up of only 3, let me repeat 3 notes. Chord Tones, Scale Tones and Chromatic Tones (Passing Tones and Approach Notes). I look at a bass line like a archery. There is you (beat 1) and the target (where the next chord chagne occurs). The arrow is your bass line. The walking line will often create a smooth linear motion from one chord change. A walking line is characterized by a quarter note feel. This is means that you have 3 notes in between one target ands the next. Now that the simple stuff is out of the way. I also like to make sure that the tonality of the chord is represented and that I don't hit any really bad notes (like the Maj7 on a dominant 7 chord).
Looking at your above examples, I might play (each note is a quarter note)
E,G,Eb,G,F,D,Db,B, C (roots and thirds w/ a seventh)
and
C,C#,D,A,D#,A,E,F#
Just an example
Mike |
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Joe Q.
New Member
USA
70 Posts |
Posted - 12/29/2005 : 19:40:34
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Mike,
Thanks for the reply. "3 notes" makes walking a little less intimidating. Like I said, I can come up with some really good lines on paper. I did this for my first rehearsal to keep things running smoothly. After the rehearsal, I worked a little more with the piano player. We read though some charts where I didn't have my line on paper. We went slow and it wasn't all that bad, but still uncomfortable. I stuck to Roots and 5th's unless I had 2 measures of the same chord.
I appreciate your advice on creating walking lines. What do you think of this line for this progression:
Autumn Leaves:
Em7 Eb7 | Dm7 Db7 | CM7 |
E B Bb Eb | D A Ab Db | C
Do you think using the 5th on the chord is going to be an issue?
Thanks,
Joe
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Joe Q.
New Member
USA
70 Posts |
Posted - 12/29/2005 : 23:03:13
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Mike,
For improvisation purposes, I was trying to analyze Autumn Leaves. Everything points to E minor; however, the B7 (and sometimes B7b9) is not diatonic to the key of E minor.
F#m7b5 | B7b9 | Em7 | Em7 |
Wouldn't the "five" chord in a minor key be a minor chord? Can you please help me clear things up?
Joe
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Edited by - Joe Q. on 12/29/2005 23:06:05 |
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michaeldimin
Forum Admin
99 Posts |
Posted - 12/30/2005 : 05:34:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Joe Q.
Mike,
Thanks for the reply. "3 notes" makes walking a little less intimidating. Like I said, I can come up with some really good lines on paper. I did this for my first rehearsal to keep things running smoothly. After the rehearsal, I worked a little more with the piano player. We read though some charts where I didn't have my line on paper. We went slow and it wasn't all that bad, but still uncomfortable. I stuck to Roots and 5th's unless I had 2 measures of the same chord.
I appreciate your advice on creating walking lines. What do you think of this line for this progression:
Autumn Leaves:
Em7 Eb7 | Dm7 Db7 | CM7 |
E B Bb Eb | D A Ab Db | C
Do you think using the 5th on the chord is going to be an issue?
Thanks,
Joe
Using the 5th is not an issue, but the third does a better job in defining the quality of the chord
Mike |
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michaeldimin
Forum Admin
99 Posts |
Posted - 12/30/2005 : 05:53:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Joe Q.
Mike,
For improvisation purposes, I was trying to analyze Autumn Leaves. Everything points to E minor; however, the B7 (and sometimes B7b9) is not diatonic to the key of E minor.
F#m7b5 | B7b9 | Em7 | Em7 |
Wouldn't the "five" chord in a minor key be a minor chord? Can you please help me clear things up?
Joe
Functional Harmony raises it's ugly head again. The problem with a minor key is that the diatonic 5th is a minor chord. Without the tritone between the third and seventh degree of the Dominant chord, there is not sense of tension and resolution. Therefore the B-7 is made a B7/B7(b9)/B7 alt, etc.
In the classical world, this was the purpose of the Harmonic Minor scale ("harmonic", get it  ) and although it can still be used, more often than not different modes of the Melodic Minor Scale are used.
Over a non-diatonic dominant 7th chord, you will often find the Lydian b7 aka lydian dominanat scale. Which is a lydian mode with a b7 or a mixolydian mode with a raised 4th. It is also good on dom7#11 chords. That mode comes from the 4th degree of the Melodic Minor Scale. In this case, it comes from the 4th degree of the F# Melodic Minor
Over a Altered chord (B7alt) you would use the altered scale. The altered scale comes from the 7th degree of the Melodic Minor Scale. In this case the B7 alt comes from the 7th degree of the C Melodic Minor. It is called altered because all of the tensions are altered. You'll find, b9, #9, #11 (b5), b13(#5).
Finally the B7(b9) - Over a b9 chord, you'll often use the "half step/whole step" scale. Which, as the name implies is built on a series of half steps and whole steps. It comes from Diminished harmony. What is really nice about this scale is that it is symmetrical - There are only 3 of them. Therefore this same scale, the B7 half step/whole step also works over D7(b9), F7(b9) and Ab7(b9).
Finally, over the minor7(b5) chords, that are part of a minor II-V, try using a locrian mode with a #2. This comes from the 6th degree of the Melodic Minor scale. I think you'll like the sound of the natural 9th over the chord than the b9 of the locrian mode
Mike
PS - do start, just ad in some of the changed notes, ie, the b9 and #9 over the B7, just to see how they sound. Don't neccessarily start learning all the scales
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Joe Q.
New Member
USA
70 Posts |
Posted - 12/30/2005 : 21:09:45
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Mike,
Thank you for clearing up the B7 issue in Autumn Leaves. I do remember in my classical theory classes making the 7th scale degree sharp in a minor key for the 5 chord. We would always call it "Five sharp seven". Playing over the B7 is not a problem; however, I always feel better if I know WHY I am playing something.
I am very familiar with the major modes. I want to make sure that I have my information correct concerning the harmonic and melodic minor modes. This is what I have:
Harmonic Minor Modes:
1. Melodic Minor (mM7)
2. Locrian nat.13 (half-dim.)
3. Ionian #5 (Aug.M7)
4. Dorian #11 (m7)
5. Phrygian nat.3 (Dom.7)
6. Lydian #9 (M7)
7. Diminished (dim.7)
Melodic Minor Modes:
1. Melodic Minor (mM7)
2. Dorian b9 (m7)
3. Lydian #5 (Aug.M7)
4. Lydian b7 (Dom.7)
5. Mixolydian b13 (Dom.7)
6. Locrian nat.9 (half-dim.)
7. Altered (half-dim.)
Thanks,
Joe
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michaeldimin
Forum Admin
99 Posts |
Posted - 01/02/2006 : 22:02:56
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Let's forget about Harmonic Minor - you really won't need it. As for Melodic Minor:
1. Melodic Minor (mM7) CORRECT
2. Dorian b9 (m7) - THINK SUS b9
3. Lydian #5 (Aug.M7)RIGHT ON
4. Lydian b7 (Dom.7) YOU BETCHA
5. Mixolydian b13 (Dom.7) - SEE BELOW
6. Locrian nat.9 (half-dim.) ONE MORE FOR THE ROAD
7. Altered (half-dim.) ALMOST SEE BELOW
4.5 out of 7 not bad (you get half credit for #7) The problem with the 5th mode of the MM scale is that both the 11th and b13th will sound bad against that dominant 7th chord ("Avoid Notes"). On the dom7 b13 you would be better off playing altered or whole tone. On #7, you would the altered chord is a dominant 7th with all the tensions altered [b9, #9, #11 (b5), #5 (b13)].
One of the cool things about MM scale is that it has no avoid notes. You can play any of the chords in the MM harmony over the scale without worry of hitting a sour note. Therefore take a melodic minor lick and play it over each chord in the MM key. ie. In C MM, play a lick over C-(maj7), Dsus(b9), Ebmaj7(#5), F7(#11), A-7(b5) and B7alt and it will work. Now apply this to a minor II-V, ie |D-7(b5)| G7alt| C- The D-7(b5) comes from the 6th degree of the F MM scale and the G7alt comes from 7th degree the Ab MM scale. Now play a F MM lick over the D-7(b5) and play the same lick, up a minor 3rd, over the G7alt
Mike
ps - you're making me work
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michaeldimin
Forum Admin
99 Posts |
Posted - 01/02/2006 : 22:06:41
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Joe, 1 more thing
Mode 2 I said thing Sus(b9) as opposed to a minor 7 chord. That is due to that fact that a b9 sounds, well, yucky, over a -7 chord |
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Joe Q.
New Member
USA
70 Posts |
Posted - 01/03/2006 : 20:54:09
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Mike,
This is my check for understanding:
As I look at the modes of Melodic Minor, I am questioning things that I got right (and wrong). I spelled out a C Melodic Minor scale and built the chords based on that scale.
C D Eb F G A B C
1. C Eb G B = CmM7
2. D F A C = D-7 Why again did we come up with Dsus(b9)?
3. Eb G B D = EbM7(#5)
4. F A C Eb = F7 Why did we add a #11?
5. G B D F = G7 Why change this to G7alt.?
6. A C Eb G = A-7(b5)
7. B D F A = B-7(b5) Why change this to B7alt.?
Minor II V in C Melodic Minor:
D-7(b5) | G7 alt. | C-(M7)
Why do we borrow the D-7(b5) from the 6th degree of F Melodic Minor? Can't we use the II chord that is diatonic to C Melodic Minor?
Why do we borrow the G7 from the 7th degree of Ab Melodic Minor? Can't we use the V chord that is diatonic to C Melodic Minor?
When we encounter a II V progression in a major key, we use the diatonic chords. Are the "rules" different for minor?
Joe
PS. Thanks for working.  I appreciate the time and effort you put into answering my posts. My musical brain gets a little bigger every time we explore a topic.
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michaeldimin
Forum Admin
99 Posts |
Posted - 01/04/2006 : 13:18:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Joe Q.
Mike,
This is my check for understanding:
As I look at the modes of Melodic Minor, I am questioning things that I got right (and wrong). I spelled out a C Melodic Minor scale and built the chords based on that scale.
C D Eb F G A B C
1. C Eb G B = CmM7
2. D F A C = D-7 Why again did we come up with Dsus(b9)?
This answers 2 questions. If we use this as the diatonic II-7 chord, we have a b9 which sounds lousy over a minor 7 chord, Look at D,G,A,C,Eb as a dom7(b9) chord. The flat 3 can be the "blue" note.
quote:
3. Eb G B D = EbM7(#5)
4. F A C Eb = F7 Why did we add a #11?
The B nat. from the scale is the #11
quote:
5. G B D F = G7 Why change this to G7alt.?
It should be the dom7(b13) chord. Not all the tensions are altered, i.e. there is an A natural (the nat 9)
quote:
6. A C Eb G = A-7(b5)
7. B D F A = B-7(b5) Why change this to B7alt.?
All the tensions are altered, b9, #9, #11(or b5) and b13 (or #5)
quote:
Minor II V in C Melodic Minor:
D-7(b5) | G7 alt. | C-(M7)
Why do we borrow the D-7(b5) from the 6th degree of F Melodic Minor? Can't we use the II chord that is diatonic to C Melodic Minor?
No, see the reason above about the b9 over the II-7 chord.
quote:
Why do we borrow the G7 from the 7th degree of Ab Melodic Minor? Can't we use the V chord that is diatonic to C Melodic Minor?
Because chords of the altered variety come from the 7th degree of a MM scale, therfore if we see a G7 alt, we borrow it from the appropriate MM scale. If , however, that V chord is a dom7(b13), then be all means stay within the diatonic MM scale
quote:
When we encounter a II V progression in a major key, we use the diatonic chords. Are the "rules" different for minor?
Well, yes, no, maybe. How hip do you want to be? If you want to soud like Claude Bolling than use the diatonic Harmonic Minor. If, however you want to sound like Charlie Parker ...
The rules are not applied to the music, the rules are defined from the music. It is looking back and analyzing the masters that creates the "rules"
Mike |
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Joe Q.
New Member
USA
70 Posts |
Posted - 01/04/2006 : 20:05:48
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Mike,
Thanks! Your answers were clear, easy to understand, and hip. Sometimes I feel like a kid that keeps on asking, "Why? Why? Why?". But I figure that the more I ask; "Why?", the closer I get to my answer. I have also been doing my homework with Internet resources. Sometimes it is tricky to know if what I am reading is accurate.
I'm still sorting out some of the information, but the next step is to apply what I have learned. If I don't, it will go away...
Is Autumn Leaves a good tune to use for Melodic Minor harmony? If not, which tune do you suggest?
Thanks!
Joe
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michaeldimin
Forum Admin
99 Posts |
Posted - 01/06/2006 : 07:15:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Joe Q.
Mike,
Thanks! Your answers were clear, easy to understand, and hip. Sometimes I feel like a kid that keeps on asking, "Why? Why? Why?". But I figure that the more I ask; "Why?", the closer I get to my answer. I have also been doing my homework with Internet resources. Sometimes it is tricky to know if what I am reading is accurate.
I'm still sorting out some of the information, but the next step is to apply what I have learned. If I don't, it will go away...
Is Autumn Leaves a good tune to use for Melodic Minor harmony? If not, which tune do you suggest?
Thanks!
Joe[/br]
Autumn Leaves is cool. looking at the A section, it is mostly diatonic to G amjor/E minor (real book key) until the F#-7(b5)/B7(b9). I have recorded 3 examples of solo lines over this progression. The F# is A MM and the B7 is C MM. The first line uses the same phrase just changing 1 note to account for the new MM scale. The first line is:
C B A G# to C B A G.
The 2nd line uses the first phrase from above and then just moved up a minor 3rd.
Finally, the third line, starts with the first line above (A MM) then continues down the C MM Scale. C B A G# G F Eb D C B
Mike
www.michaeldimin.com/MM.mp3 |
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Joe Q.
New Member
USA
70 Posts |
Posted - 01/07/2006 : 23:53:32
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Mike,
Thanks for the audio file! I'm going to put some improvisation time in on Autumn Leaves. I appreciate your help.
I am getting a new 6 string soon. I can't wait to explore the extended upper register.
Joe
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Topic |
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Walking Lines
